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	<title>Comments on: New Evidence That Grandmothers Were Crucial for Human Evolution</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/</link>
	<description>Ideas, innovations and discoveries from the world of science</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 01:28:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Joseph Biddulph</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-11262</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Biddulph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 10:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-11262</guid>
		<description>I should say that grandmothers (and grandfathers) are crucial to human development. Our daughter-in-law has recently given birth, and our help is very much needed just to enable mother and baby to tick over. Besides the historical fact that without grandparents having produced the children in the first place, there would be nobody around to produce generation No. 3! Question: Do grandchildren contribute to the education, physique and mental development of grandparents?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should say that grandmothers (and grandfathers) are crucial to human development. Our daughter-in-law has recently given birth, and our help is very much needed just to enable mother and baby to tick over. Besides the historical fact that without grandparents having produced the children in the first place, there would be nobody around to produce generation No. 3! Question: Do grandchildren contribute to the education, physique and mental development of grandparents?</p>
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		<title>By: Reluar Sierra</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10961</link>
		<dc:creator>Reluar Sierra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 May 2013 04:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10961</guid>
		<description>For decades, Sarah Blaffer Hrdy (see Amazon) has been writing about alloparenting and other related topics. Her insights probably inspired the research that we&#039;re talking about now.  Her work is an excellent read. My personal take on this topic is about the elephant in the room. If menopause evolved for the survival of the species, we should consider the surprisingly high incidence of other non reproducing members of our species having a parallel effect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For decades, Sarah Blaffer Hrdy (see Amazon) has been writing about alloparenting and other related topics. Her insights probably inspired the research that we&#8217;re talking about now.  Her work is an excellent read. My personal take on this topic is about the elephant in the room. If menopause evolved for the survival of the species, we should consider the surprisingly high incidence of other non reproducing members of our species having a parallel effect.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10716</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Apr 2013 14:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10716</guid>
		<description>Surly this is an argument simply for having older relatives than grandmothers per se. A grandfather could offer the same advantages?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surly this is an argument simply for having older relatives than grandmothers per se. A grandfather could offer the same advantages?</p>
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		<title>By: Carolyn</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10698</link>
		<dc:creator>Carolyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Apr 2013 23:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10698</guid>
		<description>Another hypothesis put forward as fact by those who do not understand the scientific method at all.  &quot;New Evidence&quot;--whaaa?
The presumption is that menopause and long life has a biological function.  Key phrase to note:  In the real world, female chimpanzees typically live about 35 to 45 years in the wild and rarely survive past their child-bearing years. 

Fact is people died long before anyone reached the age of menopause.  And there are many other more plausible explanations for the increase in lifespan...i.e. agriculture, tool making, group cooperation, brain development that allows you to transmit complex knowledge to you and MOST importantly the advent of language which allows you to convey complex information like tool making and hunting strategies.

Another feel good story, but the fact is females in other species are able to provide the same &#039;biological services&#039; without the advent of menopause....elephants come to mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another hypothesis put forward as fact by those who do not understand the scientific method at all.  &#8220;New Evidence&#8221;&#8211;whaaa?<br />
The presumption is that menopause and long life has a biological function.  Key phrase to note:  In the real world, female chimpanzees typically live about 35 to 45 years in the wild and rarely survive past their child-bearing years. </p>
<p>Fact is people died long before anyone reached the age of menopause.  And there are many other more plausible explanations for the increase in lifespan&#8230;i.e. agriculture, tool making, group cooperation, brain development that allows you to transmit complex knowledge to you and MOST importantly the advent of language which allows you to convey complex information like tool making and hunting strategies.</p>
<p>Another feel good story, but the fact is females in other species are able to provide the same &#8216;biological services&#8217; without the advent of menopause&#8230;.elephants come to mind.</p>
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		<title>By: meghan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10660</link>
		<dc:creator>meghan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Apr 2013 17:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10660</guid>
		<description>responding to Arnab #22:
&quot;However, it is not really clear, why #1 would spread amongst the population !! What kind of evolutionary pressure would support more and more dependant babies.&quot;

From what I have read it seems to relate more to brain size.  Human babies have to be born at such a helpless stage in their development because their massive brain size.  They would not survive childbirth if their gestational development went on much further.  The human pelvic structure has not even fully caught up with our incredible evolutionary advance in brain development, which is why of all animals only humans optimally require assisted childbirth.  Our great big brains are the evolutionary payoff to the cost of being born so physically dependent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>responding to Arnab #22:<br />
&#8220;However, it is not really clear, why #1 would spread amongst the population !! What kind of evolutionary pressure would support more and more dependant babies.&#8221;</p>
<p>From what I have read it seems to relate more to brain size.  Human babies have to be born at such a helpless stage in their development because their massive brain size.  They would not survive childbirth if their gestational development went on much further.  The human pelvic structure has not even fully caught up with our incredible evolutionary advance in brain development, which is why of all animals only humans optimally require assisted childbirth.  Our great big brains are the evolutionary payoff to the cost of being born so physically dependent.</p>
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		<title>By: George Dawson</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10611</link>
		<dc:creator>George Dawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:53:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10611</guid>
		<description>How do we know that humans lived much past 40 in prehistoric times? That seems like quite an assumption to me. Can&#039;t an infected impacted wisdom tooth kill, if left untreated?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do we know that humans lived much past 40 in prehistoric times? That seems like quite an assumption to me. Can&#8217;t an infected impacted wisdom tooth kill, if left untreated?</p>
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		<title>By: Ivy</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10607</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Apr 2013 14:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10607</guid>
		<description>Responding to Denise&#039;s comment (#17), I just want to remind people that &quot;average lifespan&quot; includes infant mortality, which was historically quite high.  If you made it out of your childhood in 1900, the average age you could expect to reach was around 60.  I think the numbers are similar in earlier times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Responding to Denise&#8217;s comment (#17), I just want to remind people that &#8220;average lifespan&#8221; includes infant mortality, which was historically quite high.  If you made it out of your childhood in 1900, the average age you could expect to reach was around 60.  I think the numbers are similar in earlier times.</p>
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		<title>By: Arnab</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10595</link>
		<dc:creator>Arnab</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Apr 2013 00:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10595</guid>
		<description>Very interesting article indeed.

One particular aspect I fail to understand. Let us assume that the human species had two genetic mutations which evolved over the years
1) Human babies aren’t able to feed and take care of themselves immediately after weaning.
2) Female menopause (leading upto the concept of importance of Grandmothers, as specified in this article).

Now, evolution would support #2 primarily based on the facts that #1 already exists within the population. That is, female menopause had no reason to spred amongst the species, had the human babies were more capable of taking care of themselves much earlier like the babies of other primates.

However, it is not really clear, why #1 would spread amongst the population !! What kind of evolutionary pressure would support more and more dependant babies.

Any ideas/ facts on this topic?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting article indeed.</p>
<p>One particular aspect I fail to understand. Let us assume that the human species had two genetic mutations which evolved over the years<br />
1) Human babies aren’t able to feed and take care of themselves immediately after weaning.<br />
2) Female menopause (leading upto the concept of importance of Grandmothers, as specified in this article).</p>
<p>Now, evolution would support #2 primarily based on the facts that #1 already exists within the population. That is, female menopause had no reason to spred amongst the species, had the human babies were more capable of taking care of themselves much earlier like the babies of other primates.</p>
<p>However, it is not really clear, why #1 would spread amongst the population !! What kind of evolutionary pressure would support more and more dependant babies.</p>
<p>Any ideas/ facts on this topic?</p>
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		<title>By: Cricket</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10592</link>
		<dc:creator>Cricket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10592</guid>
		<description>I suspect the reason grandfathers are not included is that they simply are able to go on fathering children (though less potently) through most of their lives, and hence there&#039;s no real change between father and grandfather stage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect the reason grandfathers are not included is that they simply are able to go on fathering children (though less potently) through most of their lives, and hence there&#8217;s no real change between father and grandfather stage.</p>
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		<title>By: meghan</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10586</link>
		<dc:creator>meghan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Apr 2013 16:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10586</guid>
		<description>interesting.

Isn&#039;t it also possible though that the evolution of the lengthening of child bearing years just hasn&#039;t caught up yet with the extension of human lifespan rather than the other way around?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>interesting.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t it also possible though that the evolution of the lengthening of child bearing years just hasn&#8217;t caught up yet with the extension of human lifespan rather than the other way around?</p>
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		<title>By: Yorgis Toufexis</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10582</link>
		<dc:creator>Yorgis Toufexis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Apr 2013 14:41:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10582</guid>
		<description>Why is there no mention of the grandmothers breastfeeding their grandchildren and many other babies? The bonding associated with breastfeeding (a particular person) could (and does) play  vital role in interpersonal communication and cohesion, which in turn would support overall survival of any population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is there no mention of the grandmothers breastfeeding their grandchildren and many other babies? The bonding associated with breastfeeding (a particular person) could (and does) play  vital role in interpersonal communication and cohesion, which in turn would support overall survival of any population.</p>
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		<title>By: Cristyl</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10581</link>
		<dc:creator>Cristyl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Apr 2013 14:26:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10581</guid>
		<description>Hi,
Interesting article.
Did people not live a lot shorter then they do now? Would women stop ovulating a lot earlier as well back then? If not, and the average age was around 35 (just guessing), then &#039;young&#039; grandmothers would perhaps still be able to have children, and there would not be anybody to help with young offspring. Is there research that shows the start of menopause over time. And from what time do the researchers think grandmothers stepped in. I mean did the grandmothers from the species from whom we evolutionised also step in, or should I think more about a couple of thousand of years ago?
Thanks, Cristyl</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
Interesting article.<br />
Did people not live a lot shorter then they do now? Would women stop ovulating a lot earlier as well back then? If not, and the average age was around 35 (just guessing), then &#8216;young&#8217; grandmothers would perhaps still be able to have children, and there would not be anybody to help with young offspring. Is there research that shows the start of menopause over time. And from what time do the researchers think grandmothers stepped in. I mean did the grandmothers from the species from whom we evolutionised also step in, or should I think more about a couple of thousand of years ago?<br />
Thanks, Cristyl</p>
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		<title>By: Denise</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10498</link>
		<dc:creator>Denise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Apr 2013 15:38:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10498</guid>
		<description>There are few assumptions in how this evidence is presented in the article that I see as unfounded [giving some benefit of doubt to the actual theory].

There&#039;a a primary assumption stated that human lifespans are actually more than 45 years of age.  They aren&#039;t.  The archaeological record shows quite clearly that the vast majority of humans only lived between 35 and 45 years of age. Of course there are exceptions, but in 1900 the average lifespane in the US was 47.  The reason we now live well into our 70s and 80s is primarily due to modern medicine and nutrition. 

Additionally in early societys, as shown in any number of cultural anthrology studies over the last 100 years of tribal peoples, weaning of an infant typcially happens between ages 3 and 4, most often the later.  At 4, a child can take care of itself to some degree.  With higher primates like chimps and gorillas, there is a similar weaning age and these offspring still have a dependancy on the mother until several years later.  There is strong indicators that siblings and older lineal females will tend the younger offspring/siblings.  It&#039;s most certainly not as cut and dries as present, with apes abandoning offspring once they are weaned.

I&#039;ve never seen or heard of a study of apes in captivity -- zoo or laboratory environments where nutrition and health care can extend their livespans -- looking at the possibility of them also reaching menopause.  In past human cultures, if probably very save to say very, very few women manages to reach it either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are few assumptions in how this evidence is presented in the article that I see as unfounded [giving some benefit of doubt to the actual theory].</p>
<p>There&#8217;a a primary assumption stated that human lifespans are actually more than 45 years of age.  They aren&#8217;t.  The archaeological record shows quite clearly that the vast majority of humans only lived between 35 and 45 years of age. Of course there are exceptions, but in 1900 the average lifespane in the US was 47.  The reason we now live well into our 70s and 80s is primarily due to modern medicine and nutrition. </p>
<p>Additionally in early societys, as shown in any number of cultural anthrology studies over the last 100 years of tribal peoples, weaning of an infant typcially happens between ages 3 and 4, most often the later.  At 4, a child can take care of itself to some degree.  With higher primates like chimps and gorillas, there is a similar weaning age and these offspring still have a dependancy on the mother until several years later.  There is strong indicators that siblings and older lineal females will tend the younger offspring/siblings.  It&#8217;s most certainly not as cut and dries as present, with apes abandoning offspring once they are weaned.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never seen or heard of a study of apes in captivity &#8212; zoo or laboratory environments where nutrition and health care can extend their livespans &#8212; looking at the possibility of them also reaching menopause.  In past human cultures, if probably very save to say very, very few women manages to reach it either.</p>
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		<title>By: Johan Mathiesen aka DeadManTalking</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10456</link>
		<dc:creator>Johan Mathiesen aka DeadManTalking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Apr 2013 22:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10456</guid>
		<description>This has been floating around for awhile. A lot of untested assumptions; not very good science. Grandparents (yes, grandfathers were important, too) didn&#039;t assume their role until people had settled down into fixed camps while the adults went hunting. The important factor here was the adoption of hunting and the cultural artifacts that come with that adoption.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This has been floating around for awhile. A lot of untested assumptions; not very good science. Grandparents (yes, grandfathers were important, too) didn&#8217;t assume their role until people had settled down into fixed camps while the adults went hunting. The important factor here was the adoption of hunting and the cultural artifacts that come with that adoption.</p>
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		<title>By: Zencat</title>
		<link>http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2012/10/new-evidence-that-grandmothers-were-crucial-for-human-evolution/comment-page-1/#comment-10299</link>
		<dc:creator>Zencat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Mar 2013 17:07:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/?p=12674#comment-10299</guid>
		<description>This premise is based on current cultural assumptions about the roles of women and child care.  It may be that the tribal elders (yes, that means menopausal women too!) had other tasks that contributed to the well being of the group beyond that of just chasing after the grand children.  There would have been a group mentality about raising the children simply because of the shortened life spans.  Aunts, uncles, cousins and older siblings all would have had a role in taking care of the younger members.  This type of &quot;theory&quot; neglects the passing of skills such as weaving that take time to master.  This is also a patriarchal theory in nature - no where does it mention the extremely high attrition rate for males, who may not have been the center of tribal life, as these researchers assume.  Kinda like elephants... females are the center of the universe and the males exist outside of that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This premise is based on current cultural assumptions about the roles of women and child care.  It may be that the tribal elders (yes, that means menopausal women too!) had other tasks that contributed to the well being of the group beyond that of just chasing after the grand children.  There would have been a group mentality about raising the children simply because of the shortened life spans.  Aunts, uncles, cousins and older siblings all would have had a role in taking care of the younger members.  This type of &#8220;theory&#8221; neglects the passing of skills such as weaving that take time to master.  This is also a patriarchal theory in nature &#8211; no where does it mention the extremely high attrition rate for males, who may not have been the center of tribal life, as these researchers assume.  Kinda like elephants&#8230; females are the center of the universe and the males exist outside of that.</p>
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